Vintage MX Racing

[632RACER]

I am in the process of seeing if there is any interest in Vintage (air cooled, twin shock, drum brake) MX racing within the CKMS series. I have talked with several people who have expressed some interest. To get this going you will need to show up at the race meeting that is coming up to show support since a class will have to be added. There will need to be some discussion about this at the meeting. What has been kicked around but will need to be discussed in more detail at the race meeting is one (1) class for air cooled, twin shock, drum brake bikes with no age or skill classifications. The only criteria will be that the motorcycle fits into the above criteria and yes it would include the old Yamaha yz's with the mono-shock. As soon as I find out when the race meeting is I will post again. Remember if this is something you would be interested in you will need to show up at the race meeting. Until then if you have any questions you can call me 316-209-0179.
Thanks,
Dan

[Green711]

This is great hope we get lots of interest!!!! Thanks for spearheading this effort Dan!!!!

[632RACER]

The race meeting will be Sunday, January 10th at 2pm in the Jeeps club house. To get this going everyone that is interested needs to be at the meeting. No support means this doesn't have a chance for the 2010 race season. I would like all interested individuals to be at the meeting whether your opinion is for or against.
Thanks in advance,
Dan

[NUMBAH392]

Even though I don't have anything to ride in this class, I really do think this is a class we need at Jeeps & in the CKMS. This is a real P.V. class & is what we need. I would bet that more & more bikes will show up for this class as the year rolls on. Just gotta add the class & get the word out for it. Good luck with this Dan. I would support this class in any way I can for you.

Tom

[88toro]

I'm glad to see there is an interest in older motorcycles. A few things you "may" want to talk about at the meeting: Most pre 1974 and older twin shock bikes have around 4" of travel, not track friendly to alot of places. The 1975-77 bikes are around 7", maybe a little better on a newer track depending on the riders skill level. The 1979 and up around 11", they "could" fit a newer track.
I currently run 3 vintage series that have thier own websites, MOVMX, AHRMA, TVRC, at a race with a low numbers of bikes between the vintage ( 1974 and older, a few 1975's ) and the post vintage ( most 1975 and up about 10 years ) they will have around 115 riders. I'm sure it will take time to grow but thinking in advance how many will the gate hold for a start with the "one gate, one class" at the different tracks?
Jeeps North-East track could be updated and make a flag start area for a vintage, post-vintage event by itself. The water issue at the North end could be fixed. Some riders I know run 2 or 3 different classes on different bikes.
Jeeps has many skilled riders that have vintage and modern bikes and are very good riders, some of them attend the same races as myself so this meeting will have great results towards a new class. You also might want to have a vintage chat session, with the bikes, at Jeeps and let riders see the different bikes etc.
This is a "great" start, thanks for all your effort. I started mxing at Jeeps and other tracks in late 1971 and look forward to younger riders keeping it going. John Bezinque ( #J11 )

[Gary Foster]

How about just bringing back the PV20 class? We had this class for just the one season that we had the 4 race MX series at Jeeps and we only had about 3 riders for it, but any true PV class (not PV5 that isn't a real vintage class in any way) is going to take time to build. If you limit the class to much in what qualifies as a vintage bike it is just going to be that much harder to be successful.

[zrex rider]

I would like to see vinatge mx at Jeeps, but not with CKMS. There are way to many classes now in CKMS , plus riding a true vintage bike ( twin shocks, air cooled) on new bike track is not alot fun. We need to run vintage mx on the east track, try two races with classes 1975 and older, 1976-1978 and 1979 -1981 . I don,t know how many vintage racers at Jeeps, I think I could get help for races on east track . Jeeps members with old bikes tell us what you think.

[88toro]

If Jeeps runs a seperate race day on the East track "maybe" add a 50+ age class, or ? for the vintage class ( any 1974 and olded bikes ) and post vintage class ( any 1975 and up bikes ) and give the older riders a chance to compete against a closer age bracket of riders. Many vintage racers run 2 classes. The MOVMX series charges a rider $35 for 1 race and $25 for an 2nd. You might start getting riders from KC and the Oklahoma area with 1-35 and the hotel being so close. Many of us run that road all year. Some older bikes have the shock travel to ride the South track if you add a class to the series. Either way is a start and that's what Jeeps is looking for.

[NUMBAH392]

I would like to see vinatge mx at Jeeps, but not with CKMS. There are way to many classes now in CKMS.

I think we should do something with CKMS. There are too many weekends being used for racing right now at Jeeps. I personally think the PV5 class should be dropped. PV5 bikes are still competive as they have most of the newer modern tech. items. I think it has fair numbers, but there's nothing PV about the class. Drop this class (PV5) and bring up the class proposed here.

plus riding a true vintage bike ( twin shocks, air cooled) on new bike track is not alot fun. We need to run vintage mx on the east track.

I think the riders will ride the track for what it will give them. They will only jump what they feel is safe for them & the bike. The bigger problem will be the fast C & B riders hoggin the class from the average PV guys. I agree that we need to trim classes from the CKMS, but we do not need more races at Jeeps either. Maybe a big event, like a Vet National that will bring in a large number of riders & revenue to our area. But not a PV only race. Until it catches on, we would probably lose large amounts of money.

Tom

[632RACER]

Thanks for all the great feedback. I hope anybody interested in this will come to the meeting on Sunday. I agree about the PV5 class being eliminated. I also feel if possible we need to see if this will work within the confines of CKMS and the tracks at first. I know some of the tracks will be more difficult than others on the early/mid 70's bikes. I am trying to get something started or see if there is real interest in this. I would some day love to see true vintage racing at jeeps with riders from the MO and OK series participating but I feel we need to take small steps first. Then maybe see how many members or racer volunteers will show up to race and also most importantly help do what it takes to have a stand alone race in the future. I am in no way an expert on this, just trying to see if a class could be created/agreed upon that the old bikes (twin shock, air cooled , drum brake) could race in and see where it goes from there. Once again my idea is not the best and I appreciate the comments.
Hope to see everyone on Sunday,
Dan

[GregG]

I for one support the PV 5 class, every year there is a few people that want to drop this class. Here are my reasons for not dropping it, along with supported data :
This year in PV 5 we had 32 different riders enter throughout the 09 CKMS season. This was the last class of the top 3rd of highest #’s of total different riders in a class for the overall season.
I’m not seeing the CKMS dropping a class that popular. Not from a business stand point, it’s a money making class for the tracks. And evidently not from the riders stand point as their class is in the top 3rd in #’s of racers that showed up to race that class through out the 09 season. Earlier this season we had 2 06’s with 2 dif riders that both didn’t make it through a particular moto (The same Moto) because of mech failure, minor yes, but what a bummer after driving for over 4 hrs to get to a race, as it did affect the overall for the day. These aren’t even PV 5 bikes yet. And yes we maintain our bikes, it’s just that they are not new and lttle things can and do go wrong. After that race we went and bought 2 new 450’s so we wouldn’t have to worry. It’s easy to sit on a new bike and say a 5 yr old bike is just as competitive as a new one, but, it’s not. Bikes get better every year and there’s nothing like a “ New” race bike, everything is new, 99% of the time, no worry’s : ). If you were to drop a class which is popular with the top 3rd of our racers and track owners, shouldn’t we just drop all the classes that fall below those #’s ? Personally I don’t thinks so. We would only have 8 classes left, Then we could all go home by noon and wander what else we're supposed to do on Race Day . When we started the CKMS (and yes, I did some of the leg work) we wanted to have a successful series that riders and racers could come and enjoy the experience of racing weather they had racing exp or not, big budget or not. A lot of guys can’t go out and drop 6 to 7K every year or two on a new bike. If it's just the Name "Post Vintage" that really bothers some of you, how about we call it "The Class for guys with less than new bikes, that are at least 5 yrs old"
This thread was started concerning vintage bikes. Several years ago we added P.V 20 class to the series (at Jeeps). The class was dropped because of little or no turnout. It would be great to see a turn out of old bikes. I do know the vintage bike races do pretty good at their events towards KC and that area, and prob many other areas in the country. We did contact a vintage series in the KC area at the time and tried to get one of their series races at Jeeps, unfortunately there wasn’t really any interest from them.

The CKMS is centered around modern motorcycles (yes even the PV 5 bikes) and when it gets down to dropping classes we already have and that are currently supported (even though some are small) to bring in some thing that hasn’t worked before, My vote on that scenario would be no. I am not apposed to staying a little later on race day if we add another class or two because I think it would have to be broken down a little, at the least to get Vintage racers here.
I am all for growing motorcycle races, series and events and classes that will benefit our series and our riders. So please don’t take this as a slam to anyone’s idea’s or comments. I’m just presenting the facts as I know them and from the research I did , as well as some of my opinions based on my experiences from helping run races and race series over the last 12 yrs. The race meeting at Jeeps is important to attend as some new ideas may have been missed or over looked and should be discussed. Do your self and everyone else a favor and have your ducks in a row when presenting new idea’s or projects that you would like to see happen, ie, bring solutions with your ideas : )
When the Track owners/Reps have their annual meeting for scheduling, rule changes, class changes, etc. They take into consideration the Racers input from the previous year and the race meeting at Jeeps as well as their own knowledge and exp from running races and race series when making any changes to the CKMS for the following year.

Below are the total #’s of different riders in each class in order for CKMS in 2009.
The 27 CKMS Bike Series classes for 2009
#1 Open Beginner - 79
2 250 C - 78
3 450 C- 59
4 School boy- 45
5 vet non adv- 40
6 65/85 beg - 40
7 vet 40- 34
8 Open Outlaw - 34
9 PV 5 - 32
10 pw open- 31
11 250 B- 29
12 vet 30- 29
13 pw Sr- 28
14 65 Sr - 28
15 Super mini- 28
16 85 Sr- 27
17 85 Jr- 26
18 Open 2 stroke - 24
19 65 open - 23
20 20 450 B- 22
21 65 Jr- 18
22 Open Women- 18
23 450 A- 15
24 PW Jr - 12
25 vet 50- 12
26 250 A- 11
27 vet A- 9

[Gary Foster]

There is no doubt that PV5 is a money making class for Jeeps and the CKMS and long ago I gave up trying to get rid of it. How about changing the name to PP5 (Post Production) since a 5 year old bike really isn’t vintage, beside I know a few people I would like to be able to tease about riding in the PP class. I would also agree 100% that a 5 year old bike is more prone to mechanical failure than a new bike, but for the most part otherwise it is a competitive machine and it is rider skill not equipment that is determining the outcome of the race.

Any vintage class will take time to develop and drawl riders, and it will more than likely not be successful in one season, you have to give it time to build. When we tried the PV20 class a few years back it was one season and done. This was also the year we had the 4 race Jeeps only MX series and I am sure that didn’t help it either. We had 3 riders that raced the majority of the 4 races, I say majority since I had mechanical issues leading up the last race and couldn’t find parts to fix my bike. Take about a challenge to keep a bike going for the season, when you start racing 20 plus year old bikes finding parts and keeping you ride going can sometimes be more of a challenge than the race.

I think if you make it a twin shock, air cooled, drum brake only class you will be limiting it to much to find numbers enough to be a successful class. I feel you would be better off to just drawl a line in the sand of 10 year old, 20 year old, 25 year old, 30 year old, or whatever year old you want bikes and call it done.

For me personally it is kind of moot since my old bike has made its way to the back of the garage again and I do not see me putting out the effort to get it running again any time soon. I do like the idea of changing the name of the PV5 class to PP5 and that wouldn’t require adding another class to an already full day of racing.

[GregG]

Gary,
I don't want it to look like it's just all about the money, But $$ is what pays for the Awards Banquet, equipment, and the improvements that we all see every year.It's also about the # of guys who do ride it, although the reason it is a money making class is that it is # 9 out of 27 classes as far as different riders entering it
As far as a new name, the PP5 (Post Production) or "PP" class is fine with me
I think your right on track with the pv 20 pv 30 or what ever idea, if the track owners are on board with adding more classes.
I guess I just don't see dropping a class that our racers obviously support (in the top 1/3rd).
Ever herd "If it ain't broke..............."?

[NUMBAH392]

Greg, I didn't realize that the PV5 class had that good of numbers. I agree & understand the money issues of buying a new bike. But several guys ride their PV 5 bikes in other classes & are competitive in their other classes because the bikes are still very modern with current technology. Backing up on my pervious post that the PV 5 class didn't have good numbers, dropping this class might not be the right idea. But, if not this class, then what class gets the axe? I am not the only person who thinks we have too many classes & that the race days are too long. So adding a class without dropping something is not appealing to me. I would like to see a class like this though & for us to give it time to grow, not just a one season & done thing. Dan, I think it would be great if we were able to grow this into something bigger than just 1 class at a CKMS event. Having true PV races is a good thought to have, but I personally think we should "test the waters" within the CKMS first. I will be at the meeting & will support this class. Maybe like Gary stated a PV 10, 15, 20 or 25 might be easier to run . That's just a thought though. Keep up the good & hard work.

Tom

[moto34cross]

how about run the vintage with the quads their race is much shorter.